Comments on: Beyond the Grave: Is It Real? http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html ...nourished by the bread of life Tue, 02 Mar 2010 23:13:00 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: J.R. Miller http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1158 J.R. Miller Sat, 01 Aug 2009 02:13:39 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1158 Yes, I can see where if you were taught that God condemned people for eating apples, that could be a problem in your image of God. If you want to chat about how you perceive my own views, <a href="http://www.morethancake.org/2007/05/soteriology-what-is-salvation.html" rel="nofollow">this post is a good start</a>.... but only if you feel up to it brother :-) Yes, I can see where if you were taught that God condemned people for eating apples, that could be a problem in your image of God.

If you want to chat about how you perceive my own views, this post is a good start…. but only if you feel up to it brother :-)

]]> By: Donny Harris http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1155 Donny Harris Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:24:22 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1155 Joe, the way hell (and the good news of Christ) was taught to me as a child was : "Because Adam ate a piece of fruit from the wrong tree, God became angry with humanity and required the death of his son in order to forgive us for the stain of sin we were born with. Jesus came to save only the people who would confess him as savior and be baptized. All others, regardless of how "good" their external life is, will burn in eternal fire forever- even if they never heard of Jesus. But this God loves you and is just and merciful." Whew! Eternal burning for simply having poor theology! Yikes! My experience of God as I have grown is that God is not a "gotcha" sort of God. And that the people who die not knowing Christ (because they never heard of him) but have remained faithful to the light they do have, will still enjoy paradise- not because of their goodness, but still because of Christ. Even if they do not know Christ, Christ is still the way. And Jesus repeatedly says that God judges the heart of a man. And that heart can be in tune with the message of Jesus even if they have never known him. I do not believe it is possible for the created to have more grace than the creator. Hell was not created for people who have never heard the gospel. My sincere hope is that no one will receive eternal punishment for temporal sins. But what God chooses to do, I will certainly get out of the way. :) Without the leading of God, we are lost- even without Satan's interference. And above all else is my passionate belief that God is a far better leader than Satan is a deceiver. peace Joe, the way hell (and the good news of Christ) was taught to me as a child was :

“Because Adam ate a piece of fruit from the wrong tree, God became angry with humanity and required the death of his son in order to forgive us for the stain of sin we were born with. Jesus came to save only the people who would confess him as savior and be baptized. All others, regardless of how “good” their external life is, will burn in eternal fire forever- even if they never heard of Jesus. But this God loves you and is just and merciful.”

Whew! Eternal burning for simply having poor theology! Yikes! My experience of God as I have grown is that God is not a “gotcha” sort of God. And that the people who die not knowing Christ (because they never heard of him) but have remained faithful to the light they do have, will still enjoy paradise- not because of their goodness, but still because of Christ. Even if they do not know Christ, Christ is still the way. And Jesus repeatedly says that God judges the heart of a man. And that heart can be in tune with the message of Jesus even if they have never known him.

I do not believe it is possible for the created to have more grace than the creator. Hell was not created for people who have never heard the gospel. My sincere hope is that no one will receive eternal punishment for temporal sins. But what God chooses to do, I will certainly get out of the way. :)

Without the leading of God, we are lost- even without Satan’s interference.

And above all else is my passionate belief that God is a far better leader than Satan is a deceiver.

peace

]]> By: J.R. Miller http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1122 J.R. Miller Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:31:07 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1122 ah, okay, I see. I did not realize that was the order of things. That makes sense now. my statement about the eternality of hell notwithstanding, simple means that regardless of how one views hell (the grave or annihilation, or eternal punishment) I was interested to know your thoughts on the resurrection of the saints. Again, thanks for your clarification Cliff. ah, okay, I see. I did not realize that was the order of things. That makes sense now.

my statement about the eternality of hell notwithstanding, simple means that regardless of how one views hell (the grave or annihilation, or eternal punishment) I was interested to know your thoughts on the resurrection of the saints.

Again, thanks for your clarification Cliff.

]]> By: Cliff http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1121 Cliff Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:18:41 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1121 Keith posted a response with a book about the Hebrew notion of the ressurection vs. Greek. You asked him what in those books they taught about hell. I posted some links showing what the Hebrew notion of the ressurection was and also their concept of sheol which means grave (and is often translated as hell in some bibles.) It seemed appropriate but maybe it wasn't. What did you mean by "The eternality of hell notwithstanding"? Keith posted a response with a book about the Hebrew notion of the ressurection vs. Greek. You asked him what in those books they taught about hell. I posted some links showing what the Hebrew notion of the ressurection was and also their concept of sheol which means grave (and is often translated as hell in some bibles.) It seemed appropriate but maybe it wasn’t.

What did you mean by “The eternality of hell notwithstanding”?

]]> By: J.R. Miller http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1120 J.R. Miller Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:09:43 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1120 thanks for the link Keith, i will print it out and read it. It looks very interesting. thanks for the link Keith, i will print it out and read it. It looks very interesting.

]]> By: J.R. Miller http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1119 J.R. Miller Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:08:54 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1119 Thanks Cliff for clarifying your statement. However, since my post does not mention hell or hades or Sheol, I am not quote sure I get your point. The eternality of hell notwithstanding, what is your understanding of eternal life for the believer in Christ? Is there life beyond the grave? Thanks Cliff for clarifying your statement. However, since my post does not mention hell or hades or Sheol, I am not quote sure I get your point. The eternality of hell notwithstanding, what is your understanding of eternal life for the believer in Christ? Is there life beyond the grave?

]]> By: Keith http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1118 Keith Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:41:44 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1118 Cullmann's little book is online here: http://tr.im/sCQZ Chapter 1, which compares the deaths of Socrates & Jesus, is pretty moving. Cullmann’s little book is online here:

http://tr.im/sCQZ

Chapter 1, which compares the deaths of Socrates & Jesus, is pretty moving.

]]> By: Keith http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1117 Keith Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:37:40 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1117 Joe, I don't recall what Cullmann says about Hell. I'm thinkin' he may have talked about some form of annhilationism, but I could be way off. It's been a few years. Wright focuses more on the good stuff; I don't think he talks much about Hell in this particular work. Sorry I can't remember more accurately! Joe, I don’t recall what Cullmann says about Hell. I’m thinkin’ he may have talked about some form of annhilationism, but I could be way off. It’s been a few years.

Wright focuses more on the good stuff; I don’t think he talks much about Hell in this particular work. Sorry I can’t remember more accurately!

]]> By: Cliff http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1116 Cliff Thu, 16 Jul 2009 12:52:38 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1116 Pharisees and Saduccess weren't the ancient Hebrews Professors Stephen L. Harris and James Tabor. Note the beginning of the article: "Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades, the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek mythology. The word "hades" was in fact substituted for "sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek (see Septuagint). The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses "hades" to refer to the abode of the dead. By the second century BC, Jews who accepted the Oral Torah had come to believe that those in sheol awaited the resurrection either in comfort (in the bosom of Abraham) or in torment. This belief is reflected in Jesus' story of Lazarus and Dives. At that time Jews who rejected the Oral Torah believed that Sheol meant simply the grave." Pharisees and Saduccess weren’t the ancient Hebrews Professors Stephen L. Harris and James Tabor. Note the beginning of the article:
“Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades, the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek mythology. The word “hades” was in fact substituted for “sheol” when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek (see Septuagint). The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses “hades” to refer to the abode of the dead.

By the second century BC, Jews who accepted the Oral Torah had come to believe that those in sheol awaited the resurrection either in comfort (in the bosom of Abraham) or in torment. This belief is reflected in Jesus’ story of Lazarus and Dives. At that time Jews who rejected the Oral Torah believed that Sheol meant simply the grave.”

]]> By: Bob Sanders http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1115 Bob Sanders Thu, 16 Jul 2009 06:57:45 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1115 i find it interesting that this chapter from 1 cor does not even discuss hell, or sheol. Paul seems more concerned about explaining the importance of resurrection than talking about hell. Maybe there is a lesson in that for Christians today as well. What do we spend our time talking about? i find it interesting that this chapter from 1 cor does not even discuss hell, or sheol. Paul seems more concerned about explaining the importance of resurrection than talking about hell. Maybe there is a lesson in that for Christians today as well. What do we spend our time talking about?

]]> By: J.R. Miller http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1114 J.R. Miller Thu, 16 Jul 2009 05:53:06 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1114 Cliff, the second link has this quote, ""The ancient Hebrews had no idea of an immortal soul living a full and vital life beyond death, nor of any resurrection or return from death. " This statement is inaccurate. Even in Jesus day Jesus noted the conflict between Pharisees and Saduccees (one believing in the resurrection and the other denying it). Both the Pharisees and Sadducees were Jewish. Cliff, the second link has this quote, “”The ancient Hebrews had no idea of an immortal soul living a full and vital life beyond death, nor of any resurrection or return from death. ” This statement is inaccurate. Even in Jesus day Jesus noted the conflict between Pharisees and Saduccees (one believing in the resurrection and the other denying it). Both the Pharisees and Sadducees were Jewish.

]]> By: Cliff http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1113 Cliff Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:28:41 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1113 The Jewish religion doesn't believe in eternal punishment (it's temporary for some up to twelve months) - definitely nothing like Eterneal Punishment that many Christians believe. Sheol is the Hebrew word translated as Hell in the Old Testament. (A mistranslation of it's concept.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol The Jewish religion doesn’t believe in eternal punishment (it’s temporary for some up to twelve months) – definitely nothing like Eterneal Punishment that many Christians believe. Sheol is the Hebrew word translated as Hell in the Old Testament. (A mistranslation of it’s concept.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

]]> By: J.R. Miller http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1112 J.R. Miller Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:01:06 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1112 I will have to add both books to my Amazon wishlist and read them when I can. One question in the meantime. What is the basic view on Hell in both books? Do they both hold to a view of eternal punishment or something else? I will have to add both books to my Amazon wishlist and read them when I can.

One question in the meantime. What is the basic view on Hell in both books? Do they both hold to a view of eternal punishment or something else?

]]> By: Keith http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1111 Keith Wed, 15 Jul 2009 18:58:21 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1111 I was impacted by Cullmann's differentiation between the Hebrew notion of resurrection vs. the Greek notion of inherent immortality, esp. his powerful chapter comparing Socrates' death with that of Jesus. I also loved Wright's emphasis on spending eternity in/on the New Earth, transformed by grace vs. a more ethereal Heaven. Both good books. I was impacted by Cullmann’s differentiation between the Hebrew notion of resurrection vs. the Greek notion of inherent immortality, esp. his powerful chapter comparing Socrates’ death with that of Jesus.

I also loved Wright’s emphasis on spending eternity in/on the New Earth, transformed by grace vs. a more ethereal Heaven.

Both good books.

]]> By: J.R. Miller http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1108 J.R. Miller Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:43:43 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1108 Keith, what is one thing from each book that changed you? In what way were you impacted by each? Keith, what is one thing from each book that changed you? In what way were you impacted by each?

]]> By: Keith http://www.morethancake.org/2009/07/is-there-life-beyond-the-grave.html/comment-page-1#comment-1107 Keith Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:48:32 +0000 http://www.morethancake.org/?p=973#comment-1107 Two books which really impacted me on this subject: Oscar Cullmann's brief but hard-to-find classic "Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection from the Dead?" (great stuff) and NT Wright's 2008 book "Surprised By Hope". I highly recommend both. Two books which really impacted me on this subject:
Oscar Cullmann’s brief but hard-to-find classic “Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection from the Dead?” (great stuff) and
NT Wright’s 2008 book “Surprised By Hope”.
I highly recommend both.

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