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	<title>Comments on: Throwing in the Towel on Church</title>
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	<link>http://www.morethancake.org/2009/11/throwing-in-the-towel-on-church.html</link>
	<description>...nourished by the bread of life</description>
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		<title>By: Pam McG.</title>
		<link>http://www.morethancake.org/2009/11/throwing-in-the-towel-on-church.html/comment-page-1#comment-1367</link>
		<dc:creator>Pam McG.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>NOW THAT is a bumper sticker!  &quot;learn to live in the tension of diversity...show grace!&quot;   ;O)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NOW THAT is a bumper sticker!  &#8220;learn to live in the tension of diversity&#8230;show grace!&#8221;   ;O)</p>
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		<title>By: J.R. Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.morethancake.org/2009/11/throwing-in-the-towel-on-church.html/comment-page-1#comment-1358</link>
		<dc:creator>J.R. Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I certainly agree Lionel that size changes the potential pitfalls and positives of church.  However, I think the real problem is the focus on size.  

Interesting how you say, &quot;10 is counterproductive&quot; yet Jesus has only 12 Apostles and that was quite fruitful.  

I think you might get something from my article, &quot;Does Size Matter&quot;

http://www.morethancake.org/2008/10/does-size-matter.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I certainly agree Lionel that size changes the potential pitfalls and positives of church.  However, I think the real problem is the focus on size.  </p>
<p>Interesting how you say, &#8220;10 is counterproductive&#8221; yet Jesus has only 12 Apostles and that was quite fruitful.  </p>
<p>I think you might get something from my article, &#8220;Does Size Matter&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.morethancake.org/2008/10/does-size-matter.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.morethancake.org/2008/10/does-size-matter.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lionel Woods</title>
		<link>http://www.morethancake.org/2009/11/throwing-in-the-towel-on-church.html/comment-page-1#comment-1355</link>
		<dc:creator>Lionel Woods</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:17:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.morethancake.org/?p=1489#comment-1355</guid>
		<description>Don,

Brother I am good with the &quot;faith&quot; as an objective standard, as a matter of fact I am pretty convinced theologically about what I believe, but like Joe said, some of those beliefs are hindering real community, as a matter of fact Joe I have a post coming about &quot;allegiance&quot;. Thank you for your wisdom Joe, though only through the internet, your words have always challenged me, even if we don&#039;t agree sometimes 8)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don,</p>
<p>Brother I am good with the &#8220;faith&#8221; as an objective standard, as a matter of fact I am pretty convinced theologically about what I believe, but like Joe said, some of those beliefs are hindering real community, as a matter of fact Joe I have a post coming about &#8220;allegiance&#8221;. Thank you for your wisdom Joe, though only through the internet, your words have always challenged me, even if we don&#8217;t agree sometimes <img src='http://www.morethancake.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif' alt='8)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Lionel Woods</title>
		<link>http://www.morethancake.org/2009/11/throwing-in-the-towel-on-church.html/comment-page-1#comment-1354</link>
		<dc:creator>Lionel Woods</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.morethancake.org/?p=1489#comment-1354</guid>
		<description>Joe,

You said &quot;I really do think that idolatry of the “perfect NT church” (generally speaking and not necessarily in reference to Lionel) is our most recent hurdle to genuine community.&quot;

I think it has been a significant hurdle for me. I have also realized that 5 couples does not seem to be what Jesus or how Jesus wanted us to gather, I often think 500 loses sight but I also think 10 people is counterproductive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,</p>
<p>You said &#8220;I really do think that idolatry of the “perfect NT church” (generally speaking and not necessarily in reference to Lionel) is our most recent hurdle to genuine community.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think it has been a significant hurdle for me. I have also realized that 5 couples does not seem to be what Jesus or how Jesus wanted us to gather, I often think 500 loses sight but I also think 10 people is counterproductive.</p>
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		<title>By: J.R. Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.morethancake.org/2009/11/throwing-in-the-towel-on-church.html/comment-page-1#comment-1353</link>
		<dc:creator>J.R. Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.morethancake.org/?p=1489#comment-1353</guid>
		<description>No worries Don.  We have all done that and I should have been more clear introducing Lionel&#039;s post.  I think my brother Lionel wants to be all those things you are talking about, but it the road in filled with hazards.  

I really do think that idolatry of the &quot;perfect NT church&quot; (generally speaking and not necessarily in reference to Lionel) is our most recent hurdle to genuine community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No worries Don.  We have all done that and I should have been more clear introducing Lionel&#8217;s post.  I think my brother Lionel wants to be all those things you are talking about, but it the road in filled with hazards.  </p>
<p>I really do think that idolatry of the &#8220;perfect NT church&#8221; (generally speaking and not necessarily in reference to Lionel) is our most recent hurdle to genuine community.</p>
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		<title>By: don harris</title>
		<link>http://www.morethancake.org/2009/11/throwing-in-the-towel-on-church.html/comment-page-1#comment-1351</link>
		<dc:creator>don harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 01:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Oh wow Joe, I completely missed the fact that you linked to his complete post which concerns something completely different from what I thought. Feel free to delete my response as it was written for someone who was struggling with his faith, not struggling with what church to attend. Your response is much more appropriate. Amazing how taking things out of &quot;context&quot; can lead to completely wrong interpretations. I think there must be a message there somewhere! :)

peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh wow Joe, I completely missed the fact that you linked to his complete post which concerns something completely different from what I thought. Feel free to delete my response as it was written for someone who was struggling with his faith, not struggling with what church to attend. Your response is much more appropriate. Amazing how taking things out of &#8220;context&#8221; can lead to completely wrong interpretations. I think there must be a message there somewhere! <img src='http://www.morethancake.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>peace.</p>
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		<title>By: J.R. Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.morethancake.org/2009/11/throwing-in-the-towel-on-church.html/comment-page-1#comment-1350</link>
		<dc:creator>J.R. Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi Don, interesting thoughts.  Do me a favor.  Go read Lionel;&#039;s full post and then let me know  if that changes or solidifies your observations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Don, interesting thoughts.  Do me a favor.  Go read Lionel;&#8217;s full post and then let me know  if that changes or solidifies your observations.</p>
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		<title>By: don harris</title>
		<link>http://www.morethancake.org/2009/11/throwing-in-the-towel-on-church.html/comment-page-1#comment-1349</link>
		<dc:creator>don harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.morethancake.org/?p=1489#comment-1349</guid>
		<description>Joe, he seems to reflect generalized anxiety but he leaves me wondering what it is from. He says things like &quot;So I want to give in, throw in the towel, forget the information I have learned and become the guy on the back pew.&quot; What information has he learned that has brought him such anxiety? 

He says, &quot;I honestly wished and have been praying that I could just be the guy who doesn’t care. I wonder why do I have to be the guy to question and toil and read, and engage and disagree. I wished I was the guy who could just go on Sunday, listen to the sermon, help by being an Usher, or help with the parking lot, give my money and sit passively by and do it again next Sunday. I am frustrated that I am not that guy.&quot;

Joe, is he saying he wishes he could be an unthinking, uncaring robot and put the issues causing him anxiety away? He seems to be anxious that there is &quot;something wrong&quot; with his questioning, engaging, and reading. I&#039;m still unclear as to what his anxiety is over. Perhaps he feels like he will be judged if he is honest? My advice to him, for what it is worth, would be to find which one of his friends that would truly allow him to be authentic and allow him to say whatever he wants without the need to be &quot;corrected.&quot; And then, if I were him, I would &quot;let er rip.&quot; Get it out there and off his chest. How many people sit in church and do exactly what he is saying he wishes he could do- sit there and conform and accept. Then, he needs to understand that it is ok for him to feel like he does. He isn&#039;t a bad person for his feelings.

I feel like Jesus isn&#039;t looking for mindless conformists but REAL PEOPLE who come to him out of love not out of fear. I would say there is nothing wrong with your friend. Faith does not grow by going through the motions on Sunday morning and ignoring anxious thoughts. Doubt is not the enemy of faith. Mindless, unquestioning obedience is what followers of cults do and should not be what followers of Jesus do. 

peace</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, he seems to reflect generalized anxiety but he leaves me wondering what it is from. He says things like &#8220;So I want to give in, throw in the towel, forget the information I have learned and become the guy on the back pew.&#8221; What information has he learned that has brought him such anxiety? </p>
<p>He says, &#8220;I honestly wished and have been praying that I could just be the guy who doesn’t care. I wonder why do I have to be the guy to question and toil and read, and engage and disagree. I wished I was the guy who could just go on Sunday, listen to the sermon, help by being an Usher, or help with the parking lot, give my money and sit passively by and do it again next Sunday. I am frustrated that I am not that guy.&#8221;</p>
<p>Joe, is he saying he wishes he could be an unthinking, uncaring robot and put the issues causing him anxiety away? He seems to be anxious that there is &#8220;something wrong&#8221; with his questioning, engaging, and reading. I&#8217;m still unclear as to what his anxiety is over. Perhaps he feels like he will be judged if he is honest? My advice to him, for what it is worth, would be to find which one of his friends that would truly allow him to be authentic and allow him to say whatever he wants without the need to be &#8220;corrected.&#8221; And then, if I were him, I would &#8220;let er rip.&#8221; Get it out there and off his chest. How many people sit in church and do exactly what he is saying he wishes he could do- sit there and conform and accept. Then, he needs to understand that it is ok for him to feel like he does. He isn&#8217;t a bad person for his feelings.</p>
<p>I feel like Jesus isn&#8217;t looking for mindless conformists but REAL PEOPLE who come to him out of love not out of fear. I would say there is nothing wrong with your friend. Faith does not grow by going through the motions on Sunday morning and ignoring anxious thoughts. Doubt is not the enemy of faith. Mindless, unquestioning obedience is what followers of cults do and should not be what followers of Jesus do. </p>
<p>peace</p>
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		<title>By: Suzanne Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.morethancake.org/2009/11/throwing-in-the-towel-on-church.html/comment-page-1#comment-1348</link>
		<dc:creator>Suzanne Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nice response to him, babe!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice response to him, babe!</p>
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