In my last post, I shared part of Lionel’s story and his frustrations with church. Today I want to share part of Robert’s story and why he has thrown in the towel on Jesus. Robert was once a professional Southern Baptist pastor and now he is a professed atheist. A friend wrote him a letter of concern, and following begins Robert’s “Letter to a Christian Friend.”
Dear Friend,
I thought that you might be surprised, as most of my old friends and my family have been. It is difficult for most Christians to believe that a former southern baptist minister could be an Atheist. You responded very much like a lot of them and did so with concern, love, an obvious bias that I understand, and some false assumptions. I have no problem explaining my journey to you or anyone who has a sincere desire to know, but you really need to keep an open mind, because as you already have in your e-mail, you will be tempted to assume some things that simply are false. Nothing that you wrote that supports your faith is new to me and I think you know me well enough to know that. They are convictions I once held myself. I think you also know the answer to some of the questions you posed; especially the one about whether or not I ever was a Christian. You, of all people, know better than to ask such a question. As arrogant as this may sound, if I wasn’t a Christian, then no one is.
Let me answer some of your other direct questions. I do not believe in anything supernatural or spiritual, therefore I do not beleive in a god. Christianity at it’s core is a religion based on faith (believing without evidence). In fact there is no evidence that the God of the bible exists, there is only personal experience. This is how there can be so many different religions and so many different Christian denominations that can claim to have the truth. None of them have the truth, they have belief without evidence. So, to your question about death and an afterlife….when I die, I’m dead, gone, that’s it. No I will not see my wife and children somewhere in a “spiritual place.” No such place exists…
As you can imagine, Robert has received a lot of replies to his open letter defending his new found Atheism. I would like to make a few observations of my own that, for me, reflect the core of Robert’s dilemma.
1. Convictions are a poor substitute for Conversion: What I find most striking in Robert’s response is that nowhere does he discuss a historical relationship with Jesus. Instead, what Robert describes is giving up one set of philosophical convictions about “god” for another set of convictions about the “absence of god.” I think Robert reflects a great swath of Western Faith that relies heavily on adhereence to s set of convictions that have limited emphasis on a personal encounter with Jesus.
2. Evidence is meaningless without an Encounter: I am not surprised Robert rejects the existence of the supernatural because clearly he never had an encounter with YHWH. He became a professional pastor, bought into a system of religious beliefs, but nowhere did he ever experience a personal encounter with Jesus or the power of the Spirit. How do I know? Because Robert says so. His circular reasoning is based on a false syllogism, “God is supernatural, I have not experienced the supernatural, therefore God does not exist.” In the end, Robert’s atheistic faith is still based on a narcissistic worldview instead of a external relationship.
3. Conversion and Encounter are the key. The Aposlle Paul is an early example of how these two elements stand at the center of Faith in Christ. Paul was a Jew who killed Christians for a living. He killed Christians based on a very strong set of convictions, rooted in the Old Testament evidence about God. The evidence never changed and Paul’s convictions about God were right on target. What changed for Paul was his encounter with Jesus and his conversion through the Holy Spirit.
Robert’s story is a lesson for all those who preach the Gospel of Jesus. There are many “Roberts” in our churches. Many have been created by false pastors and leaders who have relied on convictions and evidence to the exclusion of conversion and encounter. But just as bad are those who fight endlessly to change the convictions of how we “do” church. How many blogs have you read that argue that the only real way to “do” communion is with a meal? How many websites have you read that rail against any who “do” church in a big building and insist that the “house” is the only place where God dwells? In reality, all of these trendy arguments are focused on changing people’s convictions and they will eventually lead to even more disillusioned “Roberts”.
If you are struggling with the inability to “worship” YHWH, the answer will not be found changing your location, changing the size of your congregation, or changing your style of worship. The answer is found in a personal encounter with Jesus and a conversion of the heart empowered by the Spirit.
Regarding 
Regarding 
Regarding 
I am just like Robert in that I cannot make the logical leap. I am unwilling to recite litanies or sing hymns I don’t believe in…but it goes deeper than that, too. It also comes with lots of baggage: abusive relatives who were professed Christians and used religion as a further means of abuse; having issues with the amount of violence and damage that’s been done to the human race under the flag of Christianity (or most organized religions); a political choice of freedom FROM religion at a time when the lines between church and state are being erased.
I think there are several ways to spiritually grow, and that prophets of every religion have life lessons to teach us, and that a person can be a spiritual person and grow as a person and be compassionate, just, and socially responsible without being a religious person.
The toughest thing is that if you belong to a religion which commands you to recruit more people to that religion, there is a number of people you are going to turn off based on that fact alone. Doesn’t help you feel like you’re being effective at what you do, and doesn’t help the atheists who just want to be left alone and not judged. When someone learns I’m an atheist and says “that’s sad, I’ll pray for you,” that is a serious turnoff. The way I am is not sad for me because I wouldn’t be an atheist if I attached the same level of meaning to these things as you do.
Hi Heidi,
I know where you are coming from regarding abuse in the name of Jesus. I probably can’t say anything you have not already heard, so I will just share a few thoughts from my heart.
I am sorry you have suffered at the hands of those in whom you should have the most trust. That is the most painful kind of abuse there is.
I cannot change your experience, but maybe I can give you another perspective from which to see it. Yes, much evil has been done in the name of God, but in the last century even more evil has been done in the name of “no god”. The difference is that the former do evil in rebellion against the teachings of Jesus. The latter do evil and there is no moral constraint upon them.
Think of it this way. Imagine I go out into my neighborhood and throw rocks and puppies and I do it in the name of “Heidi”. Someone in my neighborhood moves back east and meets you. They say, “I hat you Heidi because I met a guy named Joe and he threw rocks at puppies in your name.” Would that be fair to you? Would my actions reflect your desire for how we should treat puppies? Clearly not. The point of my post, and the perspective I would like you to see, is that the hurts done to you do not reflect the heart of God or the teachings of Jesus. I encourage you to look at him based on his teachings, and not through the eyes and actions of those who would hurt, kill, steal or harm in His name.
Again, I doubt that is anything new to you, but it is my heartfelt response to you my friend.
Maybe someday when I am back in PA we could sit down over a cup of coffee and talk some more. Is that a deal?
He said,
“Christianity at it’s core is a religion based on faith (believing without evidence).”
Huh? Believing without evidence?
I have never heard a Christian of any stripe say, “I believe in Jesus without any evidence.” And we are supposed to believe he knows everything about Christianity?
Wow Joe. Fascinating! Do you have a link to his entire letter? I’d like to make some observations but have a fuller understanding of his position first. Thanks!
Not sure it will work since it is on a Facebook account, but here it is http://www.facebook.com//note.php?note_id=165653034753
Boy Joe, after reading Rob’s full letter, so much could be written in response as he opens a whole keg of worms (forget a can).
I think your three points are spot on, Joe. To spare your blog another gigantic post from me, I will just “briefly” mention what really jumped out at me from his posts. I may be reading him wrong as I do not know him but these are the issues I think are the most interesting in his thought process and the questions they bring up.
1. He seems to be saying “I don’t have a belief in God.” This is, to me, quite different from saying “I believe God does not exist.” He states that beliefs should require factual evidence before being considered “true.” Since he does not see any evidence for the existence of God, he simply has no belief in God. We might not agree with him, but it is a logical position to take. If someone says “fairies live under my bed”, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. You cannot prove the non existence of something. You cannot prove fairies DON’T exist. But you don’t have to. If someone believes in fairies, they need to prove they exist. If they can’t, then they can’t expect someone else to “believe” they are real. If Rob had said, “I believe God does not exist,” that would be a logical fallacy because no one needs “belief” in the non existence of something. That is like claiming to have evidence that God does not exist- which is impossible. So bottom line, he does not have a belief in God because people making the claim that God exists have not provided evidence. Should he have an encounter with Christ, I would assume he would change his position.
2. Atheism is simply a statement about a lack of a belief in a god. It isn’t a philosophy or fleshed out worldview. He says he is a materialist- matter is the only reality. Yet there are other options. One could be an atheist and and also be a stoic, cynic, hedonist, humanist, skeptic, neoplatonist, a pluralist, a sophist, an eclectic, an existentialist, a transcendentalist, or something else. It puzzles me why someone would come out as an “atheist” as that is like saying I am a “nonunicornist”. It doesn’t say anything about anyone’s world view or philosophy. I think it is more helpful to say what you DO believe instead of what you DON’T believe.
3. You are exactly right Joe. Without an encounter with God and Jesus, Christianity is simply another worldview in a mix of other competing worldviews and religions. Saying that we believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true, isn’t a persuasive argument.
4. All of that leads me to this question. Can someone like Rob choose to believe the Bible, be baptized, follow the teachings of Jesus, pray the sinners prayer for forgiveness, dedicate his or her life to God, and passionately pursue the things of God and NOT have an encounter with God? If so, why? I have read other accounts of ministers leaving the faith for similar reasons and I’m not sure why God lets this happen. Why wouldn’t they have an encounter with God. What needs to happen in order to ensure an encounter with God?
5. I have talked to atheists who say things like “I don’t hate God. I simply don’t believe a god exists. If you can show me some evidence he does, I will believe.” I don’t see a problem with this reasoning in the sense that it is honest.
6. I would bet there are many closet agnostics in our churches who are too afraid of God (hell) and from the judgements of friends and family to say what they feel. They worship out of fear, not out of love. Do you think God values fearful belief over honest doubt? I would much rather be with honest doubters than fearful believers.
7. I see a really confused world and no easy answers. There are many people who are skeptical and evidence driven in every area of life- except when it comes to their religion (of any type). Blind acceptance of anything and accepting as true the product of other people’s thinking short circuits your own growing process.
So I suppose I have difficulty telling anyone they should believe anything without evidence. Only God can prove his existence. I cannot. Why doesn’t he “prove it” to people who have lived their whole life for Him instead of leaving them to languish in doubt and eventual apostacy? Maybe the Calvinists are right.
peace
Don,
Point #2… phenomenal and very well stated. I may just have to steal your entire point in future discussions and maybe another blog follow-up.
Point #4: The only answer I have is the parable of the sower. Some hear and embrace the Gospel, yet the trials and tribulations of life can choke. I teach flks that we cannot answer they “whys” but what we can do is pray, love, and trust God for the results. I don’t know that there is anything else to do.
oint #5 &6: I agree 100%. I will take honest doubt over fake belief any day!
When Jesus met with Thomas after the resurrection, I think he showed the same desire.
Joe this was great! I really wanted to hear what you thought of his posting. I didn’t respond to it any more as I felt he just wanted to be in a word battle. As I mentioned, it makes my stomache turn when satan can get people sooo messed up and have such a heavy veil over their eyes that they just are “nothing.” Thanks again for your insight and input!
YIKES! Here is another posting he did…more perspective into his ideas….the reason I share this is because of one of the comments after it by a gal who calls herself a christian and then believes in some of the things he says…Robert is influencing…..in a dangerous direction and it…well honestly just makes me agonize in my spirit.
http://networkedblogs.com/p18249251
Joe, when someone asks me what my philosophy of life is, I just tell them I don’t believe in unicorns.
Seriously though, I had always read the parable of the sower as the sower sowing the message of the gospel. I agree with you that the end result from Rob fits in with the message of the parable. But I really feel that if people had an encounter with Jesus, they would never leave the faith. The early Chirstians not only got the message, they got an encounter with Jesus.
I don’t get the feeling Rob is being insincere at all. When I went through my own agnostic phase, I experienced complete abandonment from some long time friends. It does take a certain amount of guts to state things that 90% of the world not only disagrees with, but looks upon as wicked and evil. It is just hard for me to believe that all of the people who leave ministry and the faith just have wicked hearts and God is just abandoning them to satan. The whole thing really saddens me.
Joe,
This is great stuff and is raises some questions about the whole idea of our church praxis. In other words, I think what you’ve said here should not only be considered in how we reach those who don’t know Christ yet, but even how we disciple those that have received Christ’s grace. If the primary means of connection or belief in God is bring people to encounter Christ, what does that mean about How we lead people to a deeper relationship with Him.
I think our traditional church models (Modern United States) have focused primarily on the dissemination of information as its method. From a young age, we teach kids bible stories, give them information about God, and hope that such information will lead to an encounter. We continue that practice all the way through adulthood. So often the result is people who know the right answers but there is a disconnect in belief and practice. ie “I believe it in my head, but not in my heart.”
I think we are trying to provide people evidence to see the existence of God instead of facilitating and pointing them to a life giving encounter with the living God. So the question that I am wrestling with is how do you do that as a Pastor or a Christian leader?
Some thoughts I’ve been working through…
1) Churches must allow people to ask the hard questions.
When our primary focus is to provide evidence over encounter, contradictory experience is threatening. Part of what we need to get over in our churches is that somehow we need to “prove God.” God is the “I AM”, the self exisiting one and is whether or not we believe it. To be sure we need to help people see the evidence of God, but I am wondering if you can ever convince a person of God’s existence apart from encounter. So how does our apologetic efforts connect with bring people towards encounter? Are we more interested in being “right” or are we guiding people to ask even the hard questions, knowing that if they are seeking Christ, He will reveal himself.
2) Our gauge of Spiritual growth must be encounter driven rather than evidence driven.
Often in churches, we track the spiritual growth of an individual by their Scripture memorization, ability to recite a creed, or ability to articulate good theology. While each of these are great and part of the healthy Christian experience. Are they truly the appropriate gauge of Spriritual Maturity? I think of those in Matthew 7:21-23 that knew Christ enough to call him Lord, but never really followed Him. I think the gauge of true spiritual growth is a whole hearted surrender to Christ. It is encounter, but a willingness to be shaped and molded by the master of our lives. As a Pastor, I am wrestling with how I can help my people not only encounter Christ, but to walk his Spirit in a daily encounter with Him. So how am I gauging Spiritual Growth and am I helping them to not only gather evidence, but more importantly to fall more in Love with the Lover of their souls?
The question then I find myself wrestling with is “How?” Any thoughts?
Blessings!
Ryan
we just went through Romans 1 a few weeks ago, and I think Paul agrees with you. God is evident to all mankind from nature and we either chose to see him or not. Here are a few things that I have adopted over the past years.
1. I think “Christian Apologetics” is the biggest waste of time on earth. It is all focused on convincing the mind, but has no interest in showing the power of Jesus.
2. Pastors need to model their encounter with Jesus more than their knowledge of Him. That is hard, when churches are built around the dissemination of information. Which mind you, is still important to preach and teach the Doctrines of the Good News, but our focus must be encounter and conversion.
3. We need a better understanding of Scripture ourselves. Almost every commentary I read and pastor I hear looks at Paul’s actions in Athens as a model for ministry. Churches use names like “Mars Hill” to model their existence after Paul going to Athens and debate the philosophers. But what they do not understand is that Paul’s experience in Athens was an utter FAILURE. He says so himself. Why? Paul went to Athens relying on his ability to persuade and argue the Gospel and he failed. He left Athens convinced that the only way to spread the Gospel was in word and POWER. The power of the Gospel was not present in Athens and that is why his mission there failed. So until churches stop modeling a failed effort of evangelism, they are going to hinder the encounter with Jesus.
Joe, once again. Spot on bro! The other side is, of course, what we saw many times at ORU, “play the pretty music combined with an emotional appeal and watch the people come for a “touch” from God.” I think there is a difference between a touch from God and being touched by a beautiful worship experience (or the seductive words of a charlatan).
Philosophy is what someone uses to guide moral behavior. Everyone has one even if they can’t articulate it. Yet we cannot have a relationship with a philosophy. And you are right Joe, apologetics is often an attempt to convince someone they should adhere to Christian Philosophy rather than an encounter with Jesus. Lots of people are happy with their chosen philosophy and see no need to change.
The question I want to know is how can I lead someone to an encounter with Jesus. Everything else is a waste of air! I don’t know the answer. I am also wondering, based on many testimonies I have read about former ministers leaving the faith for another faith or none at all, if what Paul seems to be saying in Romans 9 is true- that even if we choose to become Christians, can we still NOT be a part of the elect by God’s choice. I know other passages seem to say that God wants all to be saved. But Paul here seems to be expressing a completely different thought.
15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
When I look at people like Rob, it seems like this passage relates. I don’t know how to explain it otherwise. Rob had a desire to be a Christian and to be one of the elect, yet as the passage says, it does not “depend on man’s desire or effort” but on God’s choice. Therefor an encounter with Jesus was withheld for whatever reason from Rob. I’m not even sure how to balance other scriptures talking about God’s desire that all should be saved with this one. Romans 9 has always depressed me as it makes God look like he saves an condemns based on nothing more than some hidden arbitrary criteria.
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
That is one reason I want to err on the side of grace, always. It also makes me want to consume a liter or so of a nice German beer!
Don,
First, I think showing Jesus is about demonstration the power of his Spirit in our lives both as individuals AND as a community. We cannot show Christ alone, so community (church) living in power is a huge part of God’s plan.
Second, I don’t share the Calvinist view of this passage. I think the main point of Romans is to say that God is sovereign, his decisions are just and his actions good and we, as flawed humans, have no foundation or perspective to second guess Him. I have a post coming up that may address some of these questions though so you can let me know when it goes it what you think
I suppose we must then ask, what constitutes “an encounter with Christ or demonstrating the power of his spirit.” If it means simply “a community of believers living in harmony and practicing the teachings of Jesus”, the same could be said of Buddhists (with respect to following Buddha).
I agree with you about the passage too. But more from a “I don’t WANT to believe the Calvinists”- which admitedly, isn’t a good argument on my part. Paul seems to be saying directly that God creates some for salvation and some for destruction- and he gives examples. I will gladly jump on the “flawed human with flawed understanding” bandwagon though.
To bring it back to topic, where does Rob fit biblically? If we look at the parable of the sower, Jesus seems to be talking about the message only. What keep people believing and what pushes them to fall away?
It seems to me that most people do the best they can with the information, beliefs, understanding, and intellect that they have. In fact, I would gladly sacrifice my “free will” on the altar if it meant I could absolutely avoid hell and make it into heaven. I hope Rob will make it into heaven anyway. I just can’t see God throwing him into hell for simply getting his beliefs wrong.
Bartender! Another round!
Hi Don, you wrote, “I suppose we must then ask, what constitutes “an encounter with Christ or demonstrating the power of his spirit.””
Any encounter that leads us to put our faith in the grace of Jesus Christ and the resurrection hope of eternity.
Where does Rob fit? I don’t know and it is not for me to figure out. What I do know is that God is a righteous judge and he does know. I chose to focus on the relationships in my life and care for those whom God has given to me. There, I do the best I can and let God be the judge.
Good post. Perhaps this is what you were getting at in the other comment?
Yes, I think there is a strong connection John. I am glad you noticed it.