Where does Rob fit? I don’t know and it is not for me to figure out. What I do know is that God is a righteous judge and he does know. I chose to focus on the relationships in my life and care for those whom God has given to me. There, I do the best I can and let God be the judge.

I agree with you about the passage too. But more from a “I don’t WANT to believe the Calvinists”- which admitedly, isn’t a good argument on my part. Paul seems to be saying directly that God creates some for salvation and some for destruction- and he gives examples. I will gladly jump on the “flawed human with flawed understanding” bandwagon though.

To bring it back to topic, where does Rob fit biblically? If we look at the parable of the sower, Jesus seems to be talking about the message only. What keep people believing and what pushes them to fall away?

It seems to me that most people do the best they can with the information, beliefs, understanding, and intellect that they have. In fact, I would gladly sacrifice my “free will” on the altar if it meant I could absolutely avoid hell and make it into heaven. I hope Rob will make it into heaven anyway. I just can’t see God throwing him into hell for simply getting his beliefs wrong.

Bartender! Another round!

Second, I don’t share the Calvinist view of this passage. I think the main point of Romans is to say that God is sovereign, his decisions are just and his actions good and we, as flawed humans, have no foundation or perspective to second guess Him. I have a post coming up that may address some of these questions though so you can let me know when it goes it what you think

Philosophy is what someone uses to guide moral behavior. Everyone has one even if they can’t articulate it. Yet we cannot have a relationship with a philosophy. And you are right Joe, apologetics is often an attempt to convince someone they should adhere to Christian Philosophy rather than an encounter with Jesus. Lots of people are happy with their chosen philosophy and see no need to change.

The question I want to know is how can I lead someone to an encounter with Jesus. Everything else is a waste of air! I don’t know the answer. I am also wondering, based on many testimonies I have read about former ministers leaving the faith for another faith or none at all, if what Paul seems to be saying in Romans 9 is true- that even if we choose to become Christians, can we still NOT be a part of the elect by God’s choice. I know other passages seem to say that God wants all to be saved. But Paul here seems to be expressing a completely different thought.

15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

When I look at people like Rob, it seems like this passage relates. I don’t know how to explain it otherwise. Rob had a desire to be a Christian and to be one of the elect, yet as the passage says, it does not “depend on man’s desire or effort” but on God’s choice. Therefor an encounter with Jesus was withheld for whatever reason from Rob. I’m not even sure how to balance other scriptures talking about God’s desire that all should be saved with this one. Romans 9 has always depressed me as it makes God look like he saves an condemns based on nothing more than some hidden arbitrary criteria.

11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

That is one reason I want to err on the side of grace, always. It also makes me want to consume a liter or so of a nice German beer!

This is great stuff and is raises some questions about the whole idea of our church praxis. In other words, I think what you’ve said here should not only be considered in how we reach those who don’t know Christ yet, but even how we disciple those that have received Christ’s grace. If the primary means of connection or belief in God is bring people to encounter Christ, what does that mean about How we lead people to a deeper relationship with Him.

I think our traditional church models (Modern United States) have focused primarily on the dissemination of information as its method. From a young age, we teach kids bible stories, give them information about God, and hope that such information will lead to an encounter. We continue that practice all the way through adulthood. So often the result is people who know the right answers but there is a disconnect in belief and practice. ie “I believe it in my head, but not in my heart.”

I think we are trying to provide people evidence to see the existence of God instead of facilitating and pointing them to a life giving encounter with the living God. So the question that I am wrestling with is how do you do that as a Pastor or a Christian leader?

Some thoughts I’ve been working through…

1) Churches must allow people to ask the hard questions.

When our primary focus is to provide evidence over encounter, contradictory experience is threatening. Part of what we need to get over in our churches is that somehow we need to “prove God.” God is the “I AM”, the self exisiting one and is whether or not we believe it. To be sure we need to help people see the evidence of God, but I am wondering if you can ever convince a person of God’s existence apart from encounter. So how does our apologetic efforts connect with bring people towards encounter? Are we more interested in being “right” or are we guiding people to ask even the hard questions, knowing that if they are seeking Christ, He will reveal himself.

2) Our gauge of Spiritual growth must be encounter driven rather than evidence driven.

Often in churches, we track the spiritual growth of an individual by their Scripture memorization, ability to recite a creed, or ability to articulate good theology. While each of these are great and part of the healthy Christian experience. Are they truly the appropriate gauge of Spriritual Maturity? I think of those in Matthew 7:21-23 that knew Christ enough to call him Lord, but never really followed Him. I think the gauge of true spiritual growth is a whole hearted surrender to Christ. It is encounter, but a willingness to be shaped and molded by the master of our lives. As a Pastor, I am wrestling with how I can help my people not only encounter Christ, but to walk his Spirit in a daily encounter with Him. So how am I gauging Spiritual Growth and am I helping them to not only gather evidence, but more importantly to fall more in Love with the Lover of their souls?

The question then I find myself wrestling with is “How?” Any thoughts?

Blessings!
Ryan

Seriously though, I had always read the parable of the sower as the sower sowing the message of the gospel. I agree with you that the end result from Rob fits in with the message of the parable. But I really feel that if people had an encounter with Jesus, they would never leave the faith. The early Chirstians not only got the message, they got an encounter with Jesus.

I don’t get the feeling Rob is being insincere at all. When I went through my own agnostic phase, I experienced complete abandonment from some long time friends. It does take a certain amount of guts to state things that 90% of the world not only disagrees with, but looks upon as wicked and evil. It is just hard for me to believe that all of the people who leave ministry and the faith just have wicked hearts and God is just abandoning them to satan. The whole thing really saddens me.

Point #4: The only answer I have is the parable of the sower. Some hear and embrace the Gospel, yet the trials and tribulations of life can choke. I teach flks that we cannot answer they “whys” but what we can do is pray, love, and trust God for the results. I don’t know that there is anything else to do.

oint #5 &6: I agree 100%. I will take honest doubt over fake belief any day!
When Jesus met with Thomas after the resurrection, I think he showed the same desire.

I am sorry you have suffered at the hands of those in whom you should have the most trust. That is the most painful kind of abuse there is.

I cannot change your experience, but maybe I can give you another perspective from which to see it. Yes, much evil has been done in the name of God, but in the last century even more evil has been done in the name of “no god”. The difference is that the former do evil in rebellion against the teachings of Jesus. The latter do evil and there is no moral constraint upon them.

Think of it this way. Imagine I go out into my neighborhood and throw rocks and puppies and I do it in the name of “Heidi”. Someone in my neighborhood moves back east and meets you. They say, “I hat you Heidi because I met a guy named Joe and he threw rocks at puppies in your name.” Would that be fair to you? Would my actions reflect your desire for how we should treat puppies? Clearly not. The point of my post, and the perspective I would like you to see, is that the hurts done to you do not reflect the heart of God or the teachings of Jesus. I encourage you to look at him based on his teachings, and not through the eyes and actions of those who would hurt, kill, steal or harm in His name.

Again, I doubt that is anything new to you, but it is my heartfelt response to you my friend. Maybe someday when I am back in PA we could sit down over a cup of coffee and talk some more. Is that a deal?

http://networkedblogs.com/p18249251

1. He seems to be saying “I don’t have a belief in God.” This is, to me, quite different from saying “I believe God does not exist.” He states that beliefs should require factual evidence before being considered “true.” Since he does not see any evidence for the existence of God, he simply has no belief in God. We might not agree with him, but it is a logical position to take. If someone says “fairies live under my bed”, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. You cannot prove the non existence of something. You cannot prove fairies DON’T exist. But you don’t have to. If someone believes in fairies, they need to prove they exist. If they can’t, then they can’t expect someone else to “believe” they are real. If Rob had said, “I believe God does not exist,” that would be a logical fallacy because no one needs “belief” in the non existence of something. That is like claiming to have evidence that God does not exist- which is impossible. So bottom line, he does not have a belief in God because people making the claim that God exists have not provided evidence. Should he have an encounter with Christ, I would assume he would change his position.

2. Atheism is simply a statement about a lack of a belief in a god. It isn’t a philosophy or fleshed out worldview. He says he is a materialist- matter is the only reality. Yet there are other options. One could be an atheist and and also be a stoic, cynic, hedonist, humanist, skeptic, neoplatonist, a pluralist, a sophist, an eclectic, an existentialist, a transcendentalist, or something else. It puzzles me why someone would come out as an “atheist” as that is like saying I am a “nonunicornist”. It doesn’t say anything about anyone’s world view or philosophy. I think it is more helpful to say what you DO believe instead of what you DON’T believe.

3. You are exactly right Joe. Without an encounter with God and Jesus, Christianity is simply another worldview in a mix of other competing worldviews and religions. Saying that we believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true, isn’t a persuasive argument.

4. All of that leads me to this question. Can someone like Rob choose to believe the Bible, be baptized, follow the teachings of Jesus, pray the sinners prayer for forgiveness, dedicate his or her life to God, and passionately pursue the things of God and NOT have an encounter with God? If so, why? I have read other accounts of ministers leaving the faith for similar reasons and I’m not sure why God lets this happen. Why wouldn’t they have an encounter with God. What needs to happen in order to ensure an encounter with God?

5. I have talked to atheists who say things like “I don’t hate God. I simply don’t believe a god exists. If you can show me some evidence he does, I will believe.” I don’t see a problem with this reasoning in the sense that it is honest.

6. I would bet there are many closet agnostics in our churches who are too afraid of God (hell) and from the judgements of friends and family to say what they feel. They worship out of fear, not out of love. Do you think God values fearful belief over honest doubt? I would much rather be with honest doubters than fearful believers.

7. I see a really confused world and no easy answers. There are many people who are skeptical and evidence driven in every area of life- except when it comes to their religion (of any type). Blind acceptance of anything and accepting as true the product of other people’s thinking short circuits your own growing process.

So I suppose I have difficulty telling anyone they should believe anything without evidence. Only God can prove his existence. I cannot. Why doesn’t he “prove it” to people who have lived their whole life for Him instead of leaving them to languish in doubt and eventual apostacy? Maybe the Calvinists are right.

peace