Bad Hermeneutics or Great Leadership?

By on 4-25-2012 in Bible Study, Church, Course Materials, Leadership, Theology

Bad Hermeneutics or Great Leadership?

This sermon was delivered by the often controversial Seattle pastor Mark Driscoll at Mars Hills Church on 09/30/2007.  This sermon title is, “Fathers and Fighting”.

The passage Driscoll preached from was Nehemiah 13:23-31 (ESV).

23 In those days also I saw the Jews who had married women of Ashdod, Ammon, and Moab. 24 And half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod, and they could not speak the language of Judah, but only the language of each people. 25 And I confronted them and cursed them and beat some of them and pulled out their hair. And I made them take an oath in the name of God, saying, “You shall not give your daughters to their sons, or take their daughters for your sons or for yourselves. 26 Did not Solomon king of Israel sin on account of such women? Among the many nations there was no king like him, and he was beloved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel. Nevertheless, foreign women made even him to sin. 27 Shall we then listen to you and do all this great evil and act treacherously against our God by marrying foreign women?” 28 And one of the sons of Jehoiada, the son of Eliashib the high priest, was the son-in-law of Sanballat the Horonite. Therefore I chased him from me. 29 Remember them, O my God, because they have desecrated the priesthood and the covenant of the priesthood and the Levites. 30 Thus I cleansed them from everything foreign, and I established the duties of the priests and Levites, each in his work; 31 and I provided for the wood offering at appointed times, and for the firstfruits. Remember me, O my God, for good.

The following excerpt demonstrates Driscoll application of this passage to his church life and practice of leadership at Mars Hill.  On this occasion, the two church leaders Driscoll mentions in this sermon were fired in a private meeting just a few minutes after this sermon was preached.

NOTE: this excerpt is from the actual transcript of the sermon so the bracketed words “(Laughter)” indicate the audience reaction to what Driscoll is preaching.

You either enjoy confrontation or you enjoy sin. You get to pick one or the other. If people sin and there’s not confrontation, then you better enjoy sin because that’s what’s going to happen. “Then I confronted them, and I cursed them.” He’s just cussing guys out (Laughter). “And beat some of them (Laughter).” I’ll read that again. “And beat some of them.” Now, he’s an older guy. And he’s beating up members of his church (Laughter). What do we do with that? I’ll tell ya what I’d like to do with that. I’d like to follow in his example. There’s a few guys right now that if I wasn’t gonna end up on CNN, I would go Old Testament on ‘em, even in leadership in this church (Laughter). Here’s Nehemiah’s deal. Now, Romans 13 says we need to obey the government, so you can’t just walk around beating people up tragically (Laughter). It does simplify things. There’s no like attorneys and blogging. Just like “I punched you in the mouth. Shut up (Laughter).” That’s clean. It’s simple.

Now, in this Nehemiah gets so angry that he can’t make these guys stop, and so he physically assaults them. Now, this week in your community group you can dialogue whether or not you think that was godly. That would be something fun to talk about (Laughter). Okay? You can debate the merits of this old day. But I’ll tell you this: I’m not saying it’s okay to beat people up, but I understand (Laughter). That’s what I am saying. I’ll tell ya another story. There’s a guy I met. He’s a mixed martial artist and ultimate fighter. Good guy. Loves Jesus. He was at church recently. And he coaches a lot of young fighters. All right?

And so I coach a lot of pastors, so I asked him, I said, “What do you do with a guy who just doesn’t submit to authority, doesn’t obey the chain of command, doesn’t listen, doesn’t do what he’s told, just rebellious, stiff-necked, hardhearted and stupid?” I said, “What do you do with those guys?” His answer was brilliant. He said, “I break their nose (Laughter).” That was his answer. I said, “Wow! Please explain.” I mean, I’m taking copious notes. Please explain. Here’s what he says: “If I get one of these guys in my fighter camp where I’m training guys and he won’t play by the rules, he won’t listen or respect authority, if I let him get away with it, I have anarchy on my whole team and next thing you know no one is doing what they’re told, and everything falls apart.” That’s exactly what’s happening in Nehemiah’s day.

“So I warn ‘em. ‘You knock it off or I’m gonna put you in the ring, I’m gonna take you down, and I’m gonna bust your nose.’ And if they disobey, disrespect or disregard me, I put ‘em in the octagon, I take ‘em down, and I bust their nose (Laughter).” Okay? He said, “So you’ll notice on the guys on my team they all have a crooked nose and a good attitude (Laughter) (Applause).” I thought “Wow!” I mean, it’s heartwarming (Laughter). I just thought “That is—that makes so much sense to me.” And that’s what Nehemiah is doing. Now, you can debate the merits all day, but I understand (Laughter). “I beat some of them.” And the next one is a little disappointing. “And I pulled out their hair”, which sounds like a chick fight, doesn’t it (Laughter)? That’s a little disappointing. “Pulled out their hair?” I’m like “Hmm.”

So let’s do this. Let’s read into the story just a little bit. Let’s say that maybe it was self-defense, they attacked him, so he had to defend himself. Okay. And somehow the hair-pulling thing I don’t know. I don’t know what happened there. Generally speaking, most men don’t respect other men who pull men’s hair (Laughter). So I’m not—maybe he scalped him (Laughter). Maybe they attacked him, he beat ‘em up and scalped ‘em. I’m gonna go with that ‘cause I can respect that a lot more (Laughter). And then he goes on, “And I made them take an oath.” You think? “Repeat after me.” “Okie-dokie”, you know (Laughter). “Now that I’m bad and bloody (Laughter).” There’s just certain parts of the Bible that [inaudible]—when I talked to the ultimate fighter guy, I said, “You know, you probably never had a verse for it.” And I actually took him to Nehemiah 13. I said, “Here you go. You got a verse. Quote it to your boys when you bust their nose (Laughter).”

Mark Driscoll, “Fathers and Fighting” preached at Mars Hills Church Seattle, WA, Nehemiah 13:23-31, 09/30/2007, taken from Mark Driscoll Sermon Archive 2005-2009 (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2009).

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Joe is currently an adjunct professor in Southern California teaching a variety of courses in Practical Theology and Leadership. In addition, he coaches church planters. Dr. Miller has a diverse educational background and authored multiple books on church history, biblical theology, and Leadership. Joe and his wife Suzanne enjoy the sun and surf with their 3 sons in San Diego, CA.

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  • http://twitter.com/monavie858 Elizabeth Cowell

    I think hermeneutics and leadership  are closely linked. If Scripture is interpreted wrong then it will be followed and applied wrong also, it leads to preaching and following bad doctrine. And then there is this big domino effect, because if pastor’s are preaching and doing wrong, the leadership is gonna follow the pastor’s example, and then the congregation will as well. I think that he is also taking this passage why out of context, and then gives the ultimate fighter one verse from this passage to use without even explaining it.

    • http://www.EmergingLife.org J.R. Miller

      Spot on observation Elizabeth on the connect between leadership and hermeneutics!

  • sheaculn

    What is the connection between hermeneutics and leadership?

    People in leadership, especially in a pastoral role, have a powerful influence. In “leadership” it means that people are following. If you are a leader than you are leading people. And so the question arises, where are you leading those people? If a leader has good hermeneutics they are teaching proper doctrine and are leading people into a closer and deeper relationship with God. If a leader has bad hermeneutics it is possible they are teaching heretical doctrine or at the very least leading people into a self-righteous relationship with God. 

    How does sermon content shape leadership in the Church?

    Sermon content can almost define leadership in a church as well as shape it. Based solely off of this excerpt by pastor Mark Driscoll, the sermon content spoke in multiple ways to the congregation about the leadership of the church. First, it implied that some of the leadership is incompetent when he said some guys, even in leadership in his church, needed to be punched. It also informed the congregation that Pastor Mark felt, if the situation was right (no civil suits and no government involvement), that he had the authority to physically assault a Christian if he was being hard-headed in his sin. Lastly, it also placed the pastor on a pedestal so to speak by taking the actions of an old-testament prophet/ Bible writer and saying he would if he could act the same way.

  • http://www.facebook.com/don.purvis1 Don Purvis

    I would say bad hermeneutics and bad leadership. While it was important to cleanse from foreign and ungodly influences, I don’t see that it was commanded by God to do it in this way. Even Nehemiah seems to understand that he may have gone beyond what God was directing and tried to do in a human way for God. (Similar to Moses and his striking out of anger/zeal instead of speaking to the rock.) What interpretation can we take from it to apply to us today? Confront with violence that which is ungodly or we are condoning sin? While he does say ” I’m not saying it’s okay to beat people up, but I understand”, I think he is treading in a dangerous direction. So overall, I would say the sermon has some issues.

  • http://www.facebook.com/BarbOrlowski Barb Orlowski

    1.  A Great Deal–meaning a lot.  How does one interpret the Scriptures reflects how they have been trained and how they personally feel that they unpack the biblical message from a passage.  Faulty hermeneutical principles used over time will affect the health of a church community. 

    2.  Sermon content points to who God is and what he is like.  Sermon content points to what the preacher finds important about this passage and what they feel that the congregation needs to hear most that day and how the passage is applied.If the sermon message inaccurately conveys the nature and character of God, then all other parts of the sermon will be skewed.  Sermon content needs to uplift God’s people just as Christ would if he were physically present with his people.  God’s character and grace are at stake when the preacher preaches.

    All too many preachers feel that they are doing God a favor by preaching harshly, like the God of the Old Testament would expect.  Last time I checked, we are in a new era of the Kingdom of God.  Things are done differently in this Kingdom.  Let’s go back to the ‘Textbook’ and get it right!

  • http://www.facebook.com/BarbOrlowski Barb Orlowski

    1. A Great Deal–meaning a lot. How does one interpret the Scriptures reflects how they have been trained and how they personally feel that they unpack the biblical message from a passage. Faulty hermeneutical principles used over time will affect the health of a church community.

    2. Sermon content points to who God is and what he is like. Sermon content points to what the preacher finds important about this passage and what they feel that the congregation needs to hear most that day and how the passage is applied.If the sermon message inaccurately conveys the nature and character of God, then all other parts of the sermon will be skewed. Sermon content needs to uplift God’s people just as Christ would if he were physically present with his people. God’s character and grace are at stake when the preacher preaches.

    All too many preachers feel that they are doing God a favor by preaching harshly, like the God of the Old Testament would expect. Last time I checked, we are in a new era of the Kingdom of God. Things are done differently in this Kingdom. Let’s go back to the ‘Textbook’ and get it right!

    • http://twitter.com/natemup Nate Tinner

      The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament; no changes in nature, just a revealed Son whom we turn to as accomplished Savior. Driscoll’s humor is perhaps a bit crude. but I honestly saw nothing wrong with this sermon, and what was shown is but an excerpt. It seems he was using that passage from Nehemiah as an interpreted symbol for what church discipline should be today: not that we should physically punish sin in the church (which Driscoll does not do or approve of), but that a church with no discipline (which would be most any church today) will have huge, unaddressed sin problems, as did the men in the passage.

      Reading the epistles shows that Paul, John, Peter, and the gang had no problem with being harsh when dealing with sin amongst believers (the Church). To say otherwise shows some amount of ignorance—or rampant eisegesis—concerning the New Testament text.

      • Hum-diggity

        If his desire was to teach about church discipline, he should teach from those NT passages regarding that. No need to take a passage from Nehemiah and suggest that Nehemiah was doing what Paul, John & Peter suggested years later.

        When we examine the teaching of any pastor, preacher or teacher, one question to keep in mind concerning the text that is being taught is, “What was the original author’s intent?” Is the author intending to prescribe how discipline against sin should be handled, or is he simply describing what Nehemiah did?

  • http://www.facebook.com/BarbOrlowski Barb Orlowski

    Hi J.R.

    Love the backing color, but noticed that it is hard to read the comments.
    Maybe a lighter color backing would help.  :)

    I think that I posted twice.  Maybe you could remove one of them if you like.

    All the best!  Keep at it.

    • http://www.EmergingLife.org J.R. Miller

      Hi, got rid of the duplicate post.  Also, thanks for the input on the color scheme.

  • Andrew McKenzie

    If Driscoll’s job was as a stand-up comedian, and you had no respect for the Word of God, you might say he’s done a good job.  Problem is he is not a comedian, he is a taking on a teaching role, to teach the Word of God, that means he needs to rightly divide the Word.  And alongside prayer and good hermeneutics should be the tool of his trade.  The fact he makes the assumption Nehemiah pulled out the hair of their heads and jokes about this is a clear example of where his hermeneutics may have let him down because is possible considering the culture of the time, it was a reference to the hair of their beards, as this would have been a great disgrace to the men.  He seems to be making the passage about a justification for getting angry, when what I see it about is what made Nehemiah angry, the fact that old patterns of sin were again being taken up, lessons hadn’t been learnt, the priesthood was being desecrated – leadership in the priesthood was lacking.  Whenever a person stands before the people, a congregation, as a leader, a preacher, they need to get their message right, based on sound hermeneutics.  They are not there just to give the people a pep talk, or to entertain them, they are taking up Christ’s charge to Peter , “Feed my sheep”.   Whose sheep are they feeding, not theirs but Christ’s Sheep.   They are leading these people on behalf of Christ so they need to work hard at getting their hermeneutics correct.

    Sermon content should engage the people, but not at expense of sound principles of hermeneutics, otherwise if you get your application wrong the leader in danger of leading the people into sin, just as many of the Kings of Judah and Israel and the false prophets did.  This was at the heart of what drove Nehemiah to react as he did – fear that they would fall back into that same pattern.  It is through sermon content that the preacher presents the vision of the church, and ultimately God’s vision. So poor application, poor preaching is going to impact on what the church, and what the individuals see as their relationship with God being about and how they should respond to what God has done for them, and how they are to respond to them around them, Christian and non-Christian.

    • http://www.EmergingLife.org J.R. Miller

      Andrew, you make some excellent points about the historical context that shows where Driscoll missed the mark on teaching Nehemiah.  Good insights brother!

      One more thought that no one else has mentioned yet, is Driscoll’s distortion of the meaning of “church.”  To make his point about Nehemiah as a role model of “manly” leadership, Driscoll says, “And he’s beating up members of his church (Laughter)” So to make the point he wants to make, Driscoll, takes Nehemiah out of this militaristic context and puts him as a leader of the “church”… and we can all read the result.

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